Comments on: Should We Shout into the Darkness? http://www.starshipnivan.com/blog/?p=65 New Words, New Worlds Tue, 07 Sep 2010 22:49:17 -0700 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Paul O'Hagan http://www.starshipnivan.com/blog/?p=65&cpage=1#comment-56004 Paul O'Hagan Sat, 15 May 2010 01:54:52 +0000 http://www.starshipnivan.com/blog/?p=65#comment-56004 Another possibility that no one has mentioned is the risk we take of not trying to communicate. Imagine a scenario of planet A hiding from the inhabitants of planet B. Later on planet A faces an extinction event which planet B's people have already overcome and could have advised them on had they only known. Or planet B experiences a technological singularity with great benefits for them which could also have benefited planet A. A small risk, I suppose, but I thought I'd mention the other side of the coin. Another possibility that no one has mentioned is the risk we take of not trying to communicate. Imagine a scenario of planet A hiding from the inhabitants of planet B. Later on planet A faces an extinction event which planet B’s people have already overcome and could have advised them on had they only known. Or planet B experiences a technological singularity with great benefits for them which could also have benefited planet A.

A small risk, I suppose, but I thought I’d mention the other side of the coin.

]]> By: Athena http://www.starshipnivan.com/blog/?p=65&cpage=1#comment-55107 Athena Sun, 31 Jan 2010 04:31:10 +0000 http://www.starshipnivan.com/blog/?p=65#comment-55107 Max, I agree. The galaxy is vast, and the prospect of "ships passing in the night" is very real. On the other hand, I suspect that the Prime Directive is unlikely. Even if alien species are based on biochemistry very similar to ours, it's almost certain they will think and react very differently -- just try to comprehend the thought processes of an elephant or a dolphin! Max, I agree. The galaxy is vast, and the prospect of “ships passing in the night” is very real. On the other hand, I suspect that the Prime Directive is unlikely. Even if alien species are based on biochemistry very similar to ours, it’s almost certain they will think and react very differently — just try to comprehend the thought processes of an elephant or a dolphin!

]]> By: Max Kalininskij http://www.starshipnivan.com/blog/?p=65&cpage=1#comment-55105 Max Kalininskij Sat, 30 Jan 2010 20:07:07 +0000 http://www.starshipnivan.com/blog/?p=65#comment-55105 "Unless our galaxy is composed of societies and beings a lot like the ones in Star Trek, my feeling is that many of them will be either really behind us (and not even intelligent/aware at all) or so beyond us as to make communication nearly pointless." I think that this issue is at the heart of the debate. Considering how resilient and adaptive DNA-based life is to various extremes of pressure and temperature, and how prevelant the building blocks of it are throughout the galaxy, we can maybe assume that the chemical composition (well again, assuming they are chemically-based) of the majority of alien life would largely be carbon-based like ours, and that they would mostly form in conditions not too far from those on earth/habitable zones of other stars. Thus we can begin to narrow down the figure for the amount of intelligent extra-terrestrial civilisations that currently exist in the Milky Way. I've heard all sorts of numbers; but several thousand is as reasonable an estimate as any. And if we then suppose that the majority of life is concentrated not too far from the galactic centre where there are less stars, less activity and less matter; and not too close to the galactic centre where there are all sorts of dangerous events, supernovas, nearby passing stars, etc... which could potentially put an immediate stop to all life. So based on this, lets say that intelligent life can be found every few hundred light years. Now finally take into account the time-frame in which life may have evolved. Even if we assume that life may have only started to meaningly evolve in the galaxy several million years ago; perhaps because too few planets had formed and cooled earlier, or because of galaxy-wide, life-sterelising events such as hypernovas; then that still leaves us several hundred million years... in which to put the birth, lifetime and perhaps death of only a few thousand seperate alien civilisations. The chance is remote enough, that even any number of them greater than a hundred or so will exist throughout the whole galaxy at any given time. As someone mentioned, whatever our differences may be, we would have to have the same sort understanding of science and mathmatics by definition; there is only one set of physical laws this side of the universe, and it makes sense that they apply equally to everybody. If our science and maths will largely be the same, then so will our technological progression (e.g. no Space Flight before Electricity, no Nuclear Reactors before Combustion of Fossil Fuels, etc...). Therefore, we can to an extent understand the advancement of alien science, by looking to our own; they will likely follow similar courses and perhaps too in the field of SETI/METI, providing that the alien race in question is interested in communicating with other intelligent life at all. We announce our presence to the universe in many ways, but only deliberately via electromagnetic waves. 150 years ago we wouldn't have been able to detect such communication, and 150 years from now it could well wind up obsolete; replaced by a new medium which for now we can either not detect, or simply do not recognize it as a potential medium for information; instead interpretting it as purely the product of natural processes of stars and other phenomena. Not to say that we will stop using electromagnetic waves to communicate with potential extraterrestrials in the future; but perhaps after a certain time period we will simply lose interest in doing so, as it would be obvious that if that is the only medium that they could detect; they would be far less advanced then us. Now considering this rapid progression of technology on Earth, the speed of advancement of which looks set only to increase; this gives us an incredibly tiny window through which we can meaningly communicate with or be communicated with by aliens. Remember that once a signal passes through a region of space; its not coming back 'round again. It could be that some civilisation spied our world as a potential for life, attempted to communicate some 10,000 years ago, naturally received no answer and lost interest. And by now they might have blown themselves up, been conquered, left their homeworld or whatever else. Thus the possibility of 2 civilisations, existing not only relatively close to each other in the Milky Way, but existing at the same time with similar levels of technological progression, and are both interested in communicating with other civilisations - are simply terrifyingly remote. Of course it could be that intelligent life is very much prevelent in the galaxy, has expanded to cover a great many star systems including some near Earth, and that at least some races would be interested in communicating with us. In which case, all we can do is sit and wait; but were it the case, there still there should have been something that would have given them away by now, even using only our current instruments and technology. And of course there is the possibility that that there is a community of alien races in contact with each other, that have a First Directive policy of sorts, not to communicate with backward civilisations until they are ready; and that go to lengths to cover their tracks, transmissions and any stellar engineering projects that they might be working on. This is also very much a possibility, but ultimately it would leave us in no different a position than in the first scenario speculated on. “Unless our galaxy is composed of societies and beings a lot like the ones in Star Trek, my feeling is that many of them will be either really behind us (and not even intelligent/aware at all) or so beyond us as to make communication nearly pointless.”

I think that this issue is at the heart of the debate. Considering how resilient and adaptive DNA-based life is to various extremes of pressure and temperature, and how prevelant the building blocks of it are throughout the galaxy, we can maybe assume that the chemical composition (well again, assuming they are chemically-based) of the majority of alien life would largely be carbon-based like ours, and that they would mostly form in conditions not too far from those on earth/habitable zones of other stars. Thus we can begin to narrow down the figure for the amount of intelligent extra-terrestrial civilisations that currently exist in the Milky Way. I’ve heard all sorts of numbers; but several thousand is as reasonable an estimate as any. And if we then suppose that the majority of life is concentrated not too far from the galactic centre where there are less stars, less activity and less matter; and not too close to the galactic centre where there are all sorts of dangerous events, supernovas, nearby passing stars, etc… which could potentially put an immediate stop to all life. So based on this, lets say that intelligent life can be found every few hundred light years. Now finally take into account the time-frame in which life may have evolved. Even if we assume that life may have only started to meaningly evolve in the galaxy several million years ago; perhaps because too few planets had formed and cooled earlier, or because of galaxy-wide, life-sterelising events such as hypernovas; then that still leaves us several hundred million years… in which to put the birth, lifetime and perhaps death of only a few thousand seperate alien civilisations. The chance is remote enough, that even any number of them greater than a hundred or so will exist throughout the whole galaxy at any given time.

As someone mentioned, whatever our differences may be, we would have to have the same sort understanding of science and mathmatics by definition; there is only one set of physical laws this side of the universe, and it makes sense that they apply equally to everybody. If our science and maths will largely be the same, then so will our technological progression (e.g. no Space Flight before Electricity, no Nuclear Reactors before Combustion of Fossil Fuels, etc…). Therefore, we can to an extent understand the advancement of alien science, by looking to our own; they will likely follow similar courses and perhaps too in the field of SETI/METI, providing that the alien race in question is interested in communicating with other intelligent life at all.

We announce our presence to the universe in many ways, but only deliberately via electromagnetic waves. 150 years ago we wouldn’t have been able to detect such communication, and 150 years from now it could well wind up obsolete; replaced by a new medium which for now we can either not detect, or simply do not recognize it as a potential medium for information; instead interpretting it as purely the product of natural processes of stars and other phenomena. Not to say that we will stop using electromagnetic waves to communicate with potential extraterrestrials in the future; but perhaps after a certain time period we will simply lose interest in doing so, as it would be obvious that if that is the only medium that they could detect; they would be far less advanced then us. Now considering this rapid progression of technology on Earth, the speed of advancement of which looks set only to increase; this gives us an incredibly tiny window through which we can meaningly communicate with or be communicated with by aliens. Remember that once a signal passes through a region of space; its not coming back ’round again. It could be that some civilisation spied our world as a potential for life, attempted to communicate some 10,000 years ago, naturally received no answer and lost interest. And by now they might have blown themselves up, been conquered, left their homeworld or whatever else.

Thus the possibility of 2 civilisations, existing not only relatively close to each other in the Milky Way, but existing at the same time with similar levels of technological progression, and are both interested in communicating with other civilisations – are simply terrifyingly remote. Of course it could be that intelligent life is very much prevelent in the galaxy, has expanded to cover a great many star systems including some near Earth, and that at least some races would be interested in communicating with us. In which case, all we can do is sit and wait; but were it the case, there still there should have been something that would have given them away by now, even using only our current instruments and technology. And of course there is the possibility that that there is a community of alien races in contact with each other, that have a First Directive policy of sorts, not to communicate with backward civilisations until they are ready; and that go to lengths to cover their tracks, transmissions and any stellar engineering projects that they might be working on. This is also very much a possibility, but ultimately it would leave us in no different a position than in the first scenario speculated on.

]]> By: Athena http://www.starshipnivan.com/blog/?p=65&cpage=1#comment-44242 Athena Mon, 31 Aug 2009 05:51:58 +0000 http://www.starshipnivan.com/blog/?p=65#comment-44242 If ETI are advanced enough to come to Earth in person, they won't need our resources. We're likelier to be more like ants to them than food. And if they're at that level, we won't be able to do much about it, either. If ETI are advanced enough to come to Earth in person, they won’t need our resources. We’re likelier to be more like ants to them than food. And if they’re at that level, we won’t be able to do much about it, either.

]]> By: ron page http://www.starshipnivan.com/blog/?p=65&cpage=1#comment-44241 ron page Mon, 31 Aug 2009 05:25:42 +0000 http://www.starshipnivan.com/blog/?p=65#comment-44241 I think there is reason to view ETI with extreme caution. Evil can be expressed many ways. For example, when you plunge a lobster head-first into a cauldron of boiling water, you are probably not considering it an act of evil. But to the lobster, immersing him to a hideous, screaming death is the embodiment of evil. When I butchered crabs in the Bering Sea, I didn't hate the spiny crustaceans that came winding my way on a conveyor belt. Yet I seized them with great force, clapped the carapace to a steel spur, and with the flick of a wrist violently dismembered them. ETI's simply might view us as harvestable resources. Be very afraid. I think there is reason to view ETI with extreme caution. Evil can be expressed many ways. For example, when you plunge a lobster head-first into a cauldron of boiling water, you are probably not considering it an act of evil. But to the lobster, immersing him to a hideous, screaming death is the embodiment of evil. When I butchered crabs in the Bering Sea, I didn’t hate the spiny crustaceans that came winding my way on a conveyor belt. Yet I seized them with great force, clapped the carapace to a steel spur, and with the flick of a wrist violently dismembered them. ETI’s simply might view us as harvestable resources. Be very afraid.

]]> By: Athena http://www.starshipnivan.com/blog/?p=65&cpage=1#comment-19343 Athena Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:26:51 +0000 http://www.starshipnivan.com/blog/?p=65#comment-19343 Original submission was in 2002?! This book has taken its time to reach publication. About as fast as conventional spaceship propulsion (*laughs*). Original submission was in 2002?! This book has taken its time to reach publication. About as fast as conventional spaceship propulsion (*laughs*).

]]> By: Walden2 http://www.starshipnivan.com/blog/?p=65&cpage=1#comment-19342 Walden2 Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:15:56 +0000 http://www.starshipnivan.com/blog/?p=65#comment-19342 Counting on Beauty: The role of aesthetic, ethical, and physical universal principles for interstellar communication Authors: Guillermo A. Lemarchand (Submitted on 28 Jul 2008) Abstract: SETI researchers believe that the basic principles of our science and the science of extraterrestrial beings should be fundamentally the same, and we should be able to communicate with them by referring to those things we share, such as the principles of mathematics, physics, and chemistry (a similar cognitive map of nature). This view assumes that there is only one way to conceptualize the laws of nature. Consequently, mathematics and the language of nature should be universal. In this essay, we discuss the epistemological bases of the last assumptions. We describe all the hypotheses behind the universality of the laws of nature and the restrictions that any technology should have to establish contact with other galactic technological civilization. We introduce some discussions about the limitations of homocentric views. We discuss about the possible use of aesthetic cognitive universals as well as ethical ones in the design of interstellar messages. We discuss the role of symmetry as a universal cognitive map. We give a specific example on how to use the Golden Section principles to design a hypothetical interstellar message based in physical and aesthetical cognitive universals. We build a space of configuration matrix, representing all the variables to be taken into account for designing an electromagnetic interstellar message (e.g. frequency, polarization, bandwidth, transmitting power, modulation, rate of information, galactic coordinates, etc.) against the limitations imposed by physical, technological, aesthetical and ethical constraints. We show how to use it, in order to make hypotheses about the characteristics and properties of hypothetical extraterrestrial artificial signals and their detection by existing SETI projects. Comments: To appear in "Between Worlds: The Art and Science of Interstellar Message Composition," Douglas Vakoch (ed.), MIT Press, Cambridge MA. This manuscript was originally submitted to the editor of the book on November 2002 Subjects: Popular Physics (physics.pop-ph); Astrophysics (astro-ph) Cite as: arXiv:0807.4518v1 [physics.pop-ph] Submission history From: Guillermo Lemarchand [view email] [v1] Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:33:18 GMT (185kb) http://arxiv.org/abs/0807.4518 Counting on Beauty: The role of aesthetic, ethical, and physical universal principles for interstellar communication

Authors: Guillermo A. Lemarchand

(Submitted on 28 Jul 2008)

Abstract: SETI researchers believe that the basic principles of our science and the science of extraterrestrial beings should be fundamentally the same, and we should be able to communicate with them by referring to those things we share, such as the principles of mathematics, physics, and chemistry (a similar cognitive map of nature).

This view assumes that there is only one way to conceptualize the laws of nature. Consequently, mathematics and the language of nature should be universal.

In this essay, we discuss the epistemological bases of the last assumptions. We describe all the hypotheses behind the universality of the laws of nature and the restrictions that any technology should have to establish contact with other galactic technological civilization. We introduce some discussions about the limitations of homocentric views. We discuss about the possible use of aesthetic cognitive universals as well as ethical ones in the design of interstellar messages. We discuss the role of symmetry as a universal cognitive map. We give a specific example on how to use the Golden Section principles to design a hypothetical interstellar message based in physical and aesthetical cognitive universals.

We build a space of configuration matrix, representing all the variables to be taken into account for designing an electromagnetic interstellar message (e.g. frequency, polarization, bandwidth, transmitting power, modulation, rate of information, galactic coordinates, etc.) against the limitations imposed by physical, technological, aesthetical and ethical constraints.

We show how to use it, in order to make hypotheses about the characteristics and properties of hypothetical extraterrestrial artificial signals and their detection by existing SETI projects.

Comments: To appear in “Between Worlds: The Art and Science of Interstellar Message Composition,” Douglas Vakoch (ed.), MIT Press, Cambridge MA. This manuscript was originally submitted to the editor of the book on November 2002

Subjects: Popular Physics (physics.pop-ph); Astrophysics (astro-ph)

Cite as: arXiv:0807.4518v1 [physics.pop-ph]

Submission history

From: Guillermo Lemarchand [view email]

[v1] Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:33:18 GMT (185kb)

http://arxiv.org/abs/0807.4518

]]> By: SETI / METI : mais où est donc E.T. ? « Dr. Goulu http://www.starshipnivan.com/blog/?p=65&cpage=1#comment-8258 SETI / METI : mais où est donc E.T. ? « Dr. Goulu Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:55:35 +0000 http://www.starshipnivan.com/blog/?p=65#comment-8258 [...] Larry Klaes, “Should We Shout into the Darkness?”, 2008, Astrogator's Logs [...] [...] Larry Klaes, “Should We Shout into the Darkness?”, 2008, Astrogator’s Logs [...]

]]> By: Paul Gilster http://www.starshipnivan.com/blog/?p=65&cpage=1#comment-8026 Paul Gilster Thu, 17 Apr 2008 18:13:20 +0000 http://www.starshipnivan.com/blog/?p=65#comment-8026 I'm with Athena on the communication problem, which I think also applies to other aspects of potential contact. We would have no way whatsoever of understanding the motivations or thought processes of extraterrestrials, so while I would assume that there is little reason for such a species to attack us, I would also assume that our utter lack of knowledge of what's out there is potentially a danger signal. If ETIs are out there in any numbers, then the Fermi question still resonates, and one possible answer is that there are reasons for a species to keep its mouth shut. David Brin has written this up far more eloquently than I can; all I can say is that while I would hope for the best in terms of new technologies, etc., I would also feel a deep unease at the commencement of any contact. Too many variables here, too much that can go wrong. I’m with Athena on the communication problem, which I think also applies to other aspects of potential contact. We would have no way whatsoever of understanding the motivations or thought processes of extraterrestrials, so while I would assume that there is little reason for such a species to attack us, I would also assume that our utter lack of knowledge of what’s out there is potentially a danger signal. If ETIs are out there in any numbers, then the Fermi question still resonates, and one possible answer is that there are reasons for a species to keep its mouth shut. David Brin has written this up far more eloquently than I can; all I can say is that while I would hope for the best in terms of new technologies, etc., I would also feel a deep unease at the commencement of any contact. Too many variables here, too much that can go wrong.

]]> By: Walden2 http://www.starshipnivan.com/blog/?p=65&cpage=1#comment-7956 Walden2 Wed, 16 Apr 2008 03:33:58 +0000 http://www.starshipnivan.com/blog/?p=65#comment-7956 Tacitus, while I consider worrying about an alien invasion to be about as useful as worrying about an earthquake - they don't happen very often where I live and if one does happen, there isn't going to be much I can do about it - I can also see where a long-lived ETI occupying a large fraction of the galaxy might consider the long-term goals of our civilization and see us as a threat for space and resources down the road. Yes, there are lots of star systems in the Milky Way, but I have seen projections where the whole galaxy could be colonized in just a few million years, so it does make me wonder why our system is not noticably inhabited? Do they all obey some kind of Star Trek type Prime Directive? Or have ETI found a way to live within their means in their own solar system and only explore via big telescopes? Tacitus, while I consider worrying about an alien invasion
to be about as useful as worrying about an earthquake –
they don’t happen very often where I live and if one does
happen, there isn’t going to be much I can do about it -
I can also see where a long-lived ETI occupying a large
fraction of the galaxy might consider the long-term goals
of our civilization and see us as a threat for space and
resources down the road.

Yes, there are lots of star systems in the Milky Way, but
I have seen projections where the whole galaxy could be
colonized in just a few million years, so it does make me
wonder why our system is not noticably inhabited? Do
they all obey some kind of Star Trek type Prime Directive?
Or have ETI found a way to live within their means in their
own solar system and only explore via big telescopes?

]]>